Interview with Grover Crisp
Stefan Rambow vs Grover Crisp, restorer of Major Dundee
SR (with the CBS LP soundtrack) - Mr. Crisp, does this look familiar?
Grover Crisp - (astonished) No - I was aware there was an original soundtrack album once, I just had not seen it up to now.
SR - Besides the popular Major Dundee March by Mitch Miller, who also produced the album, there is another song on the b-side - a quite nice vocal piece called "To Be With You" by Miller and his Gang, accompanied by an uncredited female singer, that is not in the film, though it´s clearly based on the romantic theme of the movie. Both titles are by the films composer Daniele Amfitheatrof.
GC - That´s interesting. Maybe it was just to fill up the album with appealing material. This has never been in the movie. I guess they only wanted it for the album.
SR - When did Mitch Miller came in on the project ?
GC - Miller was approached by the producer or the studio, not by Peckinpah. Miller was very popular at that time. He had a big TV show, I remember watching it as a kid with my parents. Famous was the "singalong" gang. They had that bouncing ball on the lyrics at the bottom of the screen - you were supposed to sing at home.
SR - Early day TV karaoke..
GC - Yeah (laughs) - exactly.
SR - This was a commercial decision without consulting Peckinpah ?
GC - I would assume so. Peckinpah never had a chance to even edit the film for he was not allowed on studio grounds, they had taken the film from him at that point.
SR - But he commented a lot from the outside ...
GC - Oh yeah - he said that the film was even more damaged by the music than the way the footage was cut. I kind of sit on the fence here: I reckon the complaints but on the other hand - that´s the way the film was made. That´s what the restorer in me says, too...
SR - What´s interesting about the original LP: the selection of tracks is not in chronological order and the very opening, right before Miller´s march, is this peculiar, sci-fi-like electronic effect, that appears every time the Sierra Charriba character appears or (once) is even only mentioned in the film...
GC - Right, a three note electronic theme that has a very strange sound to it. With that very exception this music by Amfitheatrof is a bit of an old fashioned, kind of traditional approach to scoring a western film. I think there are people who are fond of that score and people who are not, what the important thing is, that the director was not fond of the music then, he thought it was not appropriate to the thematic content of the film, a well known fact from his correspondence and quotes by colleagues.
SR - Was that the reason for re-scoring now and isn´t this a critical decision in a lot of ways, too ?
GC - Creating a new soundtrack for this was a very last minute thought. I thought I was finished with restoring the film, when we thought about the soundtrack. There was of course the harsh criticism of Amfitheatrof´s score amongst the Peckinpah "scholars" we discussed the restoration quite intensely with. I had two issues personally: one was the legal aspect. We looked into it and there was nothing that said we could NOT replace it. That answered, the second and bigger issue was that I, as a purist when it comes to film restoration, had my doubts about interfering here, especially without the filmmaker involved. It was the ethics of this I was struggling with very much. Finally the reason I decided that it was worth trying to do this : The film deserved a better chance to be what I really felt it was capable of or intended to be. While the old score was fine for itself it wasn´t for the movie. It was not about if this a bad score or not, the composer just created what we was asked to do at the time by the producer Jerry Bresler.
SR -...with the director Peckinpah already off the project at that time....
GC - Exactly - Amfitheatrof did an action-oriented cowboy and indian western score - but it is clearly not that kind of film and so the score and the film had been at odds with each other for so many years. The decision to rescore was always with the thought that the new one should be an alternate soundtrack and not a replacement, because historically and aesthetically the correct approach should be to maintain both. Thats what I insisted on for the DVD, where we present both. People who don´t like what we have done can always watch the original version. The 1965 version is still as it was, in mono, we did not stereorize it or anything and offer the new score only for the new, lengthened english version. I know and expected it to be controversial, but the issue is clearly worth discussing it.
SR - As far as I know, this is unheard of in film & entertainment industry history..
GC - We had indeed very unique circumstances, I can´t think of any other case, at least not where a major hollywood film has a new score written for it, years after the release, only for creative reasons.
SR - Could you comment on your brave decision to bring in a rather unknown composer on this ?
GC - Cristopher Caliendo, whom I knew for many years as a composer, scored a silent film for us about 7 years ago - he did a very interesting score and I knew he also did jazz and world music like calypso as well as orchestral music. I thought the person needed that background because the film had mexican music in it, an approach from different cultures. Plus (laughs) - I did not know any other composer and we needed to get it done in an extremely compressed timeframe...
SR - About a month ?
GC - Right, for compositions plus recordings we had 5 weeks, the composer conducted the orchestra, and we recorded at famous Capitol studios in Hollywood. The reason I felt compfortable with Christopher : After I gave him the tape he called me and told me exactly what the film is about : It is about this (Heston´s) character and his obession and his relation to the other (Harris´) character and it is a dark film - he just nailed it for me.
SR - In what way is the new music, that is aestetically still kind of ´65, too, different from the old score ?
GC - It is s a little more somber, a little more subtle. It supports the film instead of layering on top of it. We have 80 minutes of music in the new score but there was even more in the old one. We sat down and discussed how Peckinpah approached music in every other movie folloiwing "Major Dundee" Still Caliendo had to react personally as a composer to the film. The rest of us sat and waited for weeks - a very... interesting.. period then.
SR - Caliendo never gave you listening samples ?
GC - I trusted him on this, we talked almost daily on it. At the very end I dropped by at his place (without warning him) and he played a couple of things on the piano for me. Apart from that, I never really listened to the new score before it was recorded - then I sat in the studio for almost the complete session.
SR - What would have happened if the score did not appeal to you or the studio ?
GC - It was a roll of the dice in a way but it did not occur to me that it would not at least be a good score or more appropriate score. We were all hoping for the best and for me it succeeded beyond my expectations. For me as a filmmusic lover one of the tests for a good score is, how it functions on its own and it (the Caliendo score) does that.
SR - Was Jerry Fielding, the only composer Peckinpah could get along with an influence here ?
GC - Even with him he fought all the time but Peckinpah fought with everyone (laughs) - so there´s nothing unusual about it. Neither I nor the composer ever met the two..(Fielding died 1980, Peckinpah in 1984) We looked into their other films though.
SR - What about the cost of the restoration, esp. the new score ?
GC - I cannot go into actual dollars, but the new score did not cost more than to restore the soundtrack technically, apart from the music.
SR - Was this an artistsic decision without commercial pressure ? After all you work for a Hollywood major studio..
GC - It was totally an aesthetic decision - no economic or commercial aspects interfered. There was no thought to create sth more modern so that contemporary audiences would like it better. We certainly did not try to sell more dvds by doing a new score. Still I hope people will like it. What did you think of it ?
SR - I think it´s a great accomplishment by you and the composer - thank you for the opportunity to compare the two versions on one dvd - a perfect example for the possibilliteis of the medium dvd.
GC - Thank you - I m quite happy with the result after all.
SR - Could this be a role model for future restoration of films ? There have been critical voices who fear this could be the beginning of altering filmclassics on doubtful grounds...
GC - No - I dont think I will ever do this again. This was a unique situation. You have to have that kind of material remaining. We could seperate the picture & soundtrack, e.g. the deleted scene on the DVD where score & picture were completely married : if you do not have separate tracks its impossible to rescore. Here with "Dundee"evth was perfect for trying it. I understand the general concerns you mentioned, but I don´t see this happening in the future.
There´s no need to re-score good and classic films. Besides it is also too costly and difficult. It would probably also not my decision. For example, when I found the original score tapes of "Taxi Driver" - 4 half inch tapes...
SR - What was on it that was not used in the original version ?
GC - It was all in stereo ! Included were the score sheets and the Herrmann notes on every take. Since the film was in mono, I asked Marty (Martin Scorcese) and he replied: I would have done it in stereo then, but it was not common and I only had a little budget. So we created a very authentic soundtrack with himin the studio. The film in stereo now for 10 years, I thinkl they did a new 5.o dolby sound collectors edition lately I think. Most of our restoration projects are about this kind of improvements. Something like "Dundee" is a really rare case.
SR - How many people were involved in this restoration ?
GC - I have a staff of over 20, working on a lot of films on the same time. We have150-200 titles in various stages we´re workin on. The library consists of thousands
of titles it´ll still take us quite a while to get evth done. Sony is very supportive, but in the end they should because they want the assets. The library is the main asset in dvd driven film biz now for any studio.
SR - Has the DVD been released in the US already ? Will the documentary by German Mike Siegel, "Passion & Poetry" be part of the release as well ?
GC - The DVD comes out end of august I think, so it´s even earlier in Germany - bonus material will include the documentary in a version far longer than the cinematic release.
SR - Will there be a soundtrack cd soon ?
GC - I don´t know the status of it, I know its been discussed and I know the composer would love a cd release. Of course I have my own personal copy of it - I listened to it a dozen times. But its not my call, too. There´s the music division and record labels.. we´ll see. If people ask for it, it´ll happen. I shall let you know if you´re interested.
SR - Please do. My guess would be the guys from FSM. They´re so active in putting out classics on cd lately plus they did that in-depth-article ...(shows FSM Vol. 10, no.2. with "Major Dundee" cover).
GC - Well, that was a bald move to to do this cover story because of the potential controversy amongst soundtrack lovers, which I totally understand. It may sound strange in this context, but I´m a kind of a purist myself, when it comes to altering a film and its music. But this was a lifetime opportunity.
SR - Coming to the end, I have sth for you. ("Wigwam" CD Trilogy)
GC - Oh great, thank you very much, this looks terrific.
SR - Did you know they shot westerns in Germany as well ?
GC - Oh I´m very aware of it - we even have some of them in the Columbia library - let me think. I don´t recall the names, these films were starring Lex Barker, they had different titles in the US... I´m trying to remember the characters name - they have lots of books on it in the filmmuseum in Berlin but in the US.. nobody knows these films.
SR - When did Mitch Miller came in on the project ?
GC - Miller was approached by the producer or the studio, not by Peckinpah. Miller was very popular at that time. He had a big TV show, I remember watching it as a kid with my parents. Famous was the "singalong" gang. They had that bouncing ball on the lyrics at the bottom of the screen - you were supposed to sing at home.
SR - Early day TV karaoke..
GC - Yeah (laughs) - exactly.
SR - This was a commercial decision without consulting Peckinpah ?
GC - I would assume so. Peckinpah never had a chance to even edit the film for he was not allowed on studio grounds, they had taken the film from him at that point.
SR - But he commented a lot from the outside ...
GC - Oh yeah - he said that the film was even more damaged by the music than the way the footage was cut. I kind of sit on the fence here: I reckon the complaints but on the other hand - that´s the way the film was made. That´s what the restorer in me says, too...
SR - What´s interesting about the original LP: the selection of tracks is not in chronological order and the very opening, right before Miller´s march, is this peculiar, sci-fi-like electronic effect, that appears every time the Sierra Charriba character appears or (once) is even only mentioned in the film...
GC - Right, a three note electronic theme that has a very strange sound to it. With that very exception this music by Amfitheatrof is a bit of an old fashioned, kind of traditional approach to scoring a western film. I think there are people who are fond of that score and people who are not, what the important thing is, that the director was not fond of the music then, he thought it was not appropriate to the thematic content of the film, a well known fact from his correspondence and quotes by colleagues.
SR - Was that the reason for re-scoring now and isn´t this a critical decision in a lot of ways, too ?
GC - Creating a new soundtrack for this was a very last minute thought. I thought I was finished with restoring the film, when we thought about the soundtrack. There was of course the harsh criticism of Amfitheatrof´s score amongst the Peckinpah "scholars" we discussed the restoration quite intensely with. I had two issues personally: one was the legal aspect. We looked into it and there was nothing that said we could NOT replace it. That answered, the second and bigger issue was that I, as a purist when it comes to film restoration, had my doubts about interfering here, especially without the filmmaker involved. It was the ethics of this I was struggling with very much. Finally the reason I decided that it was worth trying to do this : The film deserved a better chance to be what I really felt it was capable of or intended to be. While the old score was fine for itself it wasn´t for the movie. It was not about if this a bad score or not, the composer just created what we was asked to do at the time by the producer Jerry Bresler.
SR -...with the director Peckinpah already off the project at that time....
GC - Exactly - Amfitheatrof did an action-oriented cowboy and indian western score - but it is clearly not that kind of film and so the score and the film had been at odds with each other for so many years. The decision to rescore was always with the thought that the new one should be an alternate soundtrack and not a replacement, because historically and aesthetically the correct approach should be to maintain both. Thats what I insisted on for the DVD, where we present both. People who don´t like what we have done can always watch the original version. The 1965 version is still as it was, in mono, we did not stereorize it or anything and offer the new score only for the new, lengthened english version. I know and expected it to be controversial, but the issue is clearly worth discussing it.
SR - As far as I know, this is unheard of in film & entertainment industry history..
GC - We had indeed very unique circumstances, I can´t think of any other case, at least not where a major hollywood film has a new score written for it, years after the release, only for creative reasons.
SR - Could you comment on your brave decision to bring in a rather unknown composer on this ?
GC - Cristopher Caliendo, whom I knew for many years as a composer, scored a silent film for us about 7 years ago - he did a very interesting score and I knew he also did jazz and world music like calypso as well as orchestral music. I thought the person needed that background because the film had mexican music in it, an approach from different cultures. Plus (laughs) - I did not know any other composer and we needed to get it done in an extremely compressed timeframe...
SR - About a month ?
GC - Right, for compositions plus recordings we had 5 weeks, the composer conducted the orchestra, and we recorded at famous Capitol studios in Hollywood. The reason I felt compfortable with Christopher : After I gave him the tape he called me and told me exactly what the film is about : It is about this (Heston´s) character and his obession and his relation to the other (Harris´) character and it is a dark film - he just nailed it for me.
SR - In what way is the new music, that is aestetically still kind of ´65, too, different from the old score ?
GC - It is s a little more somber, a little more subtle. It supports the film instead of layering on top of it. We have 80 minutes of music in the new score but there was even more in the old one. We sat down and discussed how Peckinpah approached music in every other movie folloiwing "Major Dundee" Still Caliendo had to react personally as a composer to the film. The rest of us sat and waited for weeks - a very... interesting.. period then.
SR - Caliendo never gave you listening samples ?
GC - I trusted him on this, we talked almost daily on it. At the very end I dropped by at his place (without warning him) and he played a couple of things on the piano for me. Apart from that, I never really listened to the new score before it was recorded - then I sat in the studio for almost the complete session.
SR - What would have happened if the score did not appeal to you or the studio ?
GC - It was a roll of the dice in a way but it did not occur to me that it would not at least be a good score or more appropriate score. We were all hoping for the best and for me it succeeded beyond my expectations. For me as a filmmusic lover one of the tests for a good score is, how it functions on its own and it (the Caliendo score) does that.
SR - Was Jerry Fielding, the only composer Peckinpah could get along with an influence here ?
GC - Even with him he fought all the time but Peckinpah fought with everyone (laughs) - so there´s nothing unusual about it. Neither I nor the composer ever met the two..(Fielding died 1980, Peckinpah in 1984) We looked into their other films though.
SR - What about the cost of the restoration, esp. the new score ?
GC - I cannot go into actual dollars, but the new score did not cost more than to restore the soundtrack technically, apart from the music.
SR - Was this an artistsic decision without commercial pressure ? After all you work for a Hollywood major studio..
GC - It was totally an aesthetic decision - no economic or commercial aspects interfered. There was no thought to create sth more modern so that contemporary audiences would like it better. We certainly did not try to sell more dvds by doing a new score. Still I hope people will like it. What did you think of it ?
SR - I think it´s a great accomplishment by you and the composer - thank you for the opportunity to compare the two versions on one dvd - a perfect example for the possibilliteis of the medium dvd.
GC - Thank you - I m quite happy with the result after all.
SR - Could this be a role model for future restoration of films ? There have been critical voices who fear this could be the beginning of altering filmclassics on doubtful grounds...
GC - No - I dont think I will ever do this again. This was a unique situation. You have to have that kind of material remaining. We could seperate the picture & soundtrack, e.g. the deleted scene on the DVD where score & picture were completely married : if you do not have separate tracks its impossible to rescore. Here with "Dundee"evth was perfect for trying it. I understand the general concerns you mentioned, but I don´t see this happening in the future.
There´s no need to re-score good and classic films. Besides it is also too costly and difficult. It would probably also not my decision. For example, when I found the original score tapes of "Taxi Driver" - 4 half inch tapes...
SR - What was on it that was not used in the original version ?
GC - It was all in stereo ! Included were the score sheets and the Herrmann notes on every take. Since the film was in mono, I asked Marty (Martin Scorcese) and he replied: I would have done it in stereo then, but it was not common and I only had a little budget. So we created a very authentic soundtrack with himin the studio. The film in stereo now for 10 years, I thinkl they did a new 5.o dolby sound collectors edition lately I think. Most of our restoration projects are about this kind of improvements. Something like "Dundee" is a really rare case.
SR - How many people were involved in this restoration ?
GC - I have a staff of over 20, working on a lot of films on the same time. We have150-200 titles in various stages we´re workin on. The library consists of thousands
of titles it´ll still take us quite a while to get evth done. Sony is very supportive, but in the end they should because they want the assets. The library is the main asset in dvd driven film biz now for any studio.
SR - Has the DVD been released in the US already ? Will the documentary by German Mike Siegel, "Passion & Poetry" be part of the release as well ?
GC - The DVD comes out end of august I think, so it´s even earlier in Germany - bonus material will include the documentary in a version far longer than the cinematic release.
SR - Will there be a soundtrack cd soon ?
GC - I don´t know the status of it, I know its been discussed and I know the composer would love a cd release. Of course I have my own personal copy of it - I listened to it a dozen times. But its not my call, too. There´s the music division and record labels.. we´ll see. If people ask for it, it´ll happen. I shall let you know if you´re interested.
SR - Please do. My guess would be the guys from FSM. They´re so active in putting out classics on cd lately plus they did that in-depth-article ...(shows FSM Vol. 10, no.2. with "Major Dundee" cover).
GC - Well, that was a bald move to to do this cover story because of the potential controversy amongst soundtrack lovers, which I totally understand. It may sound strange in this context, but I´m a kind of a purist myself, when it comes to altering a film and its music. But this was a lifetime opportunity.
SR - Coming to the end, I have sth for you. ("Wigwam" CD Trilogy)
GC - Oh great, thank you very much, this looks terrific.
SR - Did you know they shot westerns in Germany as well ?
GC - Oh I´m very aware of it - we even have some of them in the Columbia library - let me think. I don´t recall the names, these films were starring Lex Barker, they had different titles in the US... I´m trying to remember the characters name - they have lots of books on it in the filmmuseum in Berlin but in the US.. nobody knows these films.
SR - You mean the "Winnetou" movie series ? It was the Indian character, Lex Barker´s "sidekick", though, who was immensely popular over here in the 60´s - and is still now...
GC - "Winnetou"? That´s the guy, the characters name !
SR - Well, this is music from the film series done around the "Eastern German Winnetou" actor Gojko Mitic - these were shot in the former GDR. They tried kind of a p.c. approach - in favour of the Indians - and drawed millions to the cinemas all over the eastern bloc.
GC - Oh that´s interesting - I was astonished to hear how popular these movies were over here - we´ve worked on starting restoring these, amongst lots of others, but I should look into that again - they have not been released in the US on DVD yet, that´s for sure.
(C) Cinesoundz 2005
GC - "Winnetou"? That´s the guy, the characters name !
SR - Well, this is music from the film series done around the "Eastern German Winnetou" actor Gojko Mitic - these were shot in the former GDR. They tried kind of a p.c. approach - in favour of the Indians - and drawed millions to the cinemas all over the eastern bloc.
GC - Oh that´s interesting - I was astonished to hear how popular these movies were over here - we´ve worked on starting restoring these, amongst lots of others, but I should look into that again - they have not been released in the US on DVD yet, that´s for sure.
(C) Cinesoundz 2005